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  1. #1

    I don't feel like playing BK3 and here's why

    Hey all.

    So I have lost the appetite to play BK3, it even happened 2 times after the new year that I have started the game and then alt-F4 while the game was loading. Today I again wanted to play then realized that in fact I don't really feel like doing it so here I am here instead, writing about this.

    There are several things that prevents me from really enjoying the game, and here there are:

    1. Load time

    The game takes a tremendous amount of time to load. And that's only for main menu. Loading a battle takes twice as much? Why is that? I don't know.. but it surely annoys the hell out of me.

    2. Artillery vs tanks

    It's just too powerful. It takes 2 shots for an arty to kill a tank. That's overpowered in game, unrealistic and, if u ask me, plain stupid. Artillery was never used to destroy tanks, and it couldn't have been used to do that because the shell shock and shrapnel would have scratch the paint at most. Yet in game it's a 2 shot killer.

    I agree a direct hit vs the thin top of a tank might have pened it to devastating effect, but try to do that from miles away with an indirect hit.

    So I was thinking how to fix this? What if we drastically reduce the 'splash' damage and maybe add some de-track effect on close misses to compensate?

    3. Anti tank squads in buildings

    Well this is one annoying feat. A squad in a building can destroy an entire army of tanks in this game. This is so wrong and unrealistic! First of all they can pen all tanks regardless of armor. And then they have infinite ammo.

    I would change this by drastically reducing pen value with range. And then of course make squads have finite AT ammo, like 3-5 rockets maybe. To balance this, make the squad inside a building camoed until it fire.

    4. Squads spamming AT grenades at unsuspecting tanks.

    Another annoying and unrealistic feature. Make squads have limited grenades or implement abilities with cool down. I think it would be much better and would have more strategic value if all squads would be equipped with 1-2 anti tank grenades and/or even 1 panzer faust rocket (or similar systems for other nations) depending on era and squad type.

    For instance, MG squad could carry 1 AT grenade, infantry squad could carry 1 panzer faust while assault squad could carry 1 sticky AT mine, so they will have to 'assault' the tank to place the mine. Finite ammo, could be replenished at flag points. This will end this mindless chase that is happening now with squads running after tanks and throwing grenades at them...

    However, on the other hand, squads inside buildings should be more resilient vs tank fire, it would require infantry to clear buildings fast.

    5. Bomber burning houses to the ground

    So I carefully place a defensive force in town but then a bomber comes and everyone die.

    At least lets evacuate the troops from the houses, with some damage taken, of course, but let's not kill them all...

  2. #2
    Moderator Manfromstars's Avatar

    Join Date: Aug 2015

    Location: Praha

    46
    1) Im think loading time is absolute minor problem of this game.

    2) Artilery are very dangerous for most tanks because shots go from up and here most tanks not have good defence. But artilery is not in real WW2 that precise as is in this game where artilery hit tank near every hit.
    It look also it shoot too fast.

    3) AT squads in buildings are deadly traps for tanks. Tanks are in cities totaly inefective and need direct protect from soldiers and soldiers in cities must move before tanks. In field are tanks used as protection of soldiers that they can hide behind tanks.

    4) Yes cool downs unable repair vehicles or heal soldiers is realy bad.

    5) It is because there is bad limitations of units in defence and also for attacks. If you take more care for AA defences systems then bombers or any plane have minimal chances for suucess bombing or parachute drops. It also bring me idea that need for planes make plan a way where plane can fly to example avoid AA guns range.
    AA is minimaly efective in defence when bombing runs are in night. They more help to bombers show target than shoot down planes. Look on historical defences example Battle for Brittain.

  3. #3
    1) That's right.
    2) To destroy art. with tanks you need to think - flank them or something. It's good.
    3) Like Manfromstars - tanks in open space easily kill anti-tank squads - in buildings squads destroy tanks but not so easily. It's realistic and historicial. Check for example how many tanks Soviets lost in Battle of Berlin.
    4) Ok but why you didn't mention that tanks should have limited amount of ammunition?
    5) Bombers can be shot down by two self propelled flaks.

    I think with your advices the game would change to "take tanks click and rush" without any tactic and thinking.
    Mass tanks attack works now too - but it must be planned.

  4. #4
    Ok forget about 1.

    Now, regarding game balance please note I talk exclusively about skirmish mode. Attack/defence and campaign are different.

    Now, let's take them again:

    2. There are 3 maps, 2 of them have choke points so arty sits in the back and can't be flanked. Nevertheless, arty is still too strong and it's splash damage does unrealistic damage to tanks. I agree direct hits should deliver a punch, but not splash.

    3. Even in open space, w/o the help from arty, same number of AT squads vs same number of tanks will not be an easy fight for tanks. If you add several rifle squads as cannon fodder, the infantry will win. That is because tanks machine guns are largely ineffective.

    I am not sure at what numbers you refer to when you talk about Battle of Berlin, wikipedia states the total number of the operation was 2000 but that included Seelow Heights and other areas arround Berlin.

    However soviets had a tactic to assault cities, that was using infantry on the other side of the road followed by tanks just outside panzershrek range. Look it up. In the game AT squads will always attack tanks and will not be taken out easy by advancing infantry. Also AT squads range is waaaay too big compared to tank gun range.

    4. Tanks can have limited ammo too but that is irrelevant because tanks will always have enough ammo to fight until they die. They were designed like this, right?

    5. The fact that bombers can be taken down isn't a reason to make their attack so devastating against buildings. It should b devastating against units in the open, especially massed units. But to set buildings on fire? Why?


    I think my ideas would make the game more realistic and balanced rather than arty kills all as it is right now. If people will have to play more careful with their units rather than mass AT squads in town, mass tanks in front row and arty in the back, that would make for a more tactical and fun game play for everyone.

    Have you played skirmishes to see how games feel like? Let me explain: Both armies have a large mass of tanks with arty support. Whoever has more arty wins the first fight, particulary if that german sturmpanzer arround. Then the winner sends infantry to buildings that can't be taken out with anything but the bomber. So the bomber is send and ow if the defender has AA in place, he wins, if not the attacker win. Fighter is useless because defender launch fighter, attacker launch fighter and they both kill each other. And then repeat.

    So I ask you, is this fun? For me it's not, and this is why I don't feel like playing the game anymore...

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzmann View Post
    Ok forget about 1.
    Now, regarding game balance please note I talk exclusively about skirmish mode. Attack/defence and campaign are different.
    Same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzmann View Post
    2. There are 3 maps, 2 of them have choke points so arty sits in the back and can't be flanked. Nevertheless, arty is still too strong and it's splash damage does unrealistic damage to tanks. I agree direct hits should deliver a punch, but not splash.
    In my opinion it's one - "winter map" (where art. is difficult to flanked). Splash - in fact probably shouldn't give damage (but I'm not sure about this how it's in reality - and it's difficult to balance between reality and playable) but it should destroy modules such as tracks which would be hard to repair during battle if we talk about reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzmann View Post

    4. Tanks can have limited ammo too but that is irrelevant because tanks will always have enough ammo to fight until they die. They were designed like this, right?
    In this kind of short battles - yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzmann View Post
    5. The fact that bombers can be taken down isn't a reason to make their attack so devastating against buildings. It should b devastating against units in the open, especially massed units. But to set buildings on fire? Why?
    That's why:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeDvY4s7KDc

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzmann View Post
    I think my ideas would make the game more realistic and balanced rather than arty kills all as it is right now. If people will have to play more careful with their units rather than mass AT squads in town, mass tanks in front row and arty in the back, that would make for a more tactical and fun game play for everyone.
    Arty don't kill all. But using AT squads/infantry in town/city and tanks in open space it's good and realistic tactic - using arty away from first line of front, too. It's wasn't opposite in reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzmann View Post

    Have you played skirmishes to see how games feel like?
    Yes, I have played 300+ games Skirmish mode.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzmann View Post

    Let me explain: Both armies have a large mass of tanks with arty support. Whoever has more arty wins the first fight, particulary if that german sturmpanzer arround.
    I don't use self-propelled art. - and I'm in TOP10 of Skirmish Mode. And have 70%+ win in the first part of battle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzmann View Post

    Then the winner sends infantry to buildings that can't be taken out with anything but the bomber.
    It have some good clue - infrantry don't have trucks so it's useless in first part of game - can be easily killed by vehicles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzmann View Post
    So the bomber is send and ow if the defender has AA in place, he wins, if not the attacker win.
    So destroy anti-air first. I had many games where I destroyed enemy infranty in buildings by bombers or my was destroyed in same manner.

  6. #6
    So you say that you like the game mechanics as they are, you play the game and you are top 10. Good for you!

    However last time I checked the game there were no more than 6 players battling in skirmish and in the forum the situation is even more dire. So considering this, I thought the devs should know why (some) people don't feel like playing the game as it is right now...

  7. #7
    I didn't said this. I have many complaints about game mechanics and generally about it. Posted here some of them.
    I just pointed that your observations about skirmish are not true.

    The game has few active players because of many bugs and it's still being in development. Some players have crash for every second game.
    The outflow of players can be cause too by terrible 0.9.6 update which provided to game huge amount of bugs. It's really unplayable now.
    A month passed and it's hasn't been fixed.

  8. #8
    IMO I could bare with the bugs as I have in the past when the game was assault/defense type and the unit pathfinding was so bad I had games lost purely because of this. But at that time the game had something new to offer even if not perfect. However the current skirmish mode not only does not bring anything new to the table but has less than any other RTS out there.

    There is no strategy or tactics involved whatsover. Not to mention the unlimited pool of units makes skill irelevant. Most of the games I lost I dealt 2x the damage my enemy did and still lost.

    While in the old game mode you entered the game with a limited pool of units and that was it. Everything you did on the field mattered, you had to treat every situation with care. Now? Mass troops from an unlimited pool of troops (presuming you have played the game enough). Boring!

    And just a quick FYI: in the old fixed assault mode I only played fixed arty and lots of mobile AA as my units and that defense was impenetrable, Because arty is OP as fcuk and it's only counter was the bomber.

    So you say you can win games w/o arty? I pretty much doubt it, I think that you win team games and YOU play w/o arty while your team mates still use arty. This, or there are less than 10 players playing...

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzmann View Post
    There is no strategy or tactics involved whatsover.
    I use all kind of units: tanks/AA/light vehicles/infrantry/airforce in every game. I don't use sp arty and heavy tanks but I have seen pretty good tactics using heavy tanks and arty with strong durability bonus (allies commander). Additionally, I adapt proportions of used kind of units depending what opponent do even if they are without bonuses from commander. Explain me, what is this if no tactic?


    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzmann View Post
    Not to mention the unlimited pool of units makes skill irelevant. (....)
    We talk about same game? Units are limited during game. You have to decide which kind of units you will use consuming points. Same situation like in old mode - without care you will loose units too. In this mode you need think too, but faster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzmann View Post
    Most of the games I lost I dealt 2x the damage my enemy did and still lost.
    Dealing damage is not main goal. You can give 10x more damage and still lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzmann View Post
    So you say you can win games w/o arty? I pretty much doubt it, I think that you win team games and YOU play w/o arty while your team mates still use arty. This, or there are less than 10 players playing
    I'm talking mostly about 1v1 Skirmish - and yes I don't use self-propelled arty as I said. If you don' believe you can duel 1v1 with me. There is significantly more active players.

    There is a lot of contradictions in your observations.
    Last edited by LaurenceFass; 02-01-2017 at 10:47 PM.

  10. #10
    I was talking about the pool of units not the maximum units that can be on the table at any given point. This means I kill ur units but with the points you receive you will be able to replenish your losses.

    Of course dealing damage is not the goal here, however it should have a major impact on the battle outcome. However, the unlimited pool of units combined with the point earning system makes it irrelevant. Exactely as you said, I can kill 10x more units and you can still win. But why? Because you will always replenish your losses at the same pace I kill them.

    There is a thing I have to admit tho... I have not played enuf to have this unlimited pool of units as most of the veterans (of current game iteration), so my limited units will wear off and thus will allow you to win even if I played better. And the idiotic current system to earn new units doesn't cut it for me, so I am going to be stuck here for a while.

    Anyway this entire discussion made me really curious about how you play, so perhaps I will see you online in a battle sometime.

    Cheers!

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzmann View Post
    I was talking about the pool of units not the maximum units that can be on the table at any given point. This means I kill ur units but with the points you receive you will be able to replenish your losses.

    Of course dealing damage is not the goal here, however it should have a major impact on the battle outcome. However, the unlimited pool of units combined with the point earning system makes it irrelevant. Exactely as you said, I can kill 10x more units and you can still win. But why? Because you will always replenish your losses at the same pace I kill them.
    )
    Not correct. Units points are not unlimited resource with respect to time. If you killed 10x more oponnent units (for example in first part of game) - then you control game situation in some period of game and should control flag-base points too.
    Oponnent have to wait when points will renew and then transport to siege flag-base points. All of this cost time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzmann View Post
    There is a thing I have to admit tho... I have not played enuf to have this unlimited pool of units as most of the veterans (of current game iteration), so my limited units will wear off and thus will allow you to win even if I played better. And the idiotic current system to earn new units doesn't cut it for me, so I am going to be stuck here for a while.
    I agree that possibility of win should base only for skills not how long anyone has played. Fortunately earning units is fast.
    But there is some worse things - players whoes finished Afrika Korps missions before updates have improved airforce (with no possibility to get it for other players now, after updates).

  12. #12
    I have yet to get a Maus or a Sturmtiger...

    As for the unit pool I am telling you I have lost games solely because I had run out of key units. Like tanks for instance. Perhaps you have played so much and have so many units that you have forgot how is it in the begining.

    Also I had the privilege of starting with a lot of points from the early version so I don't even want to think how is it for smbd just entering the game now. Oh, and playing campaign just to be able to play a decent skirmish sucks!

  13. #13
    Ok so I realized where lies the problem. It's the units available.

    I recently played vs a player, always won the first engagement, always lost the game. Why? Because I have 12 Panthers and he has some 800+ units. So when my panthers were gone it was gg. I don't even want to think what it means to use the highly cost effective units like Panzer IV H like you know who... that's purely carnage.

    So yeah, this isn't a balanced gameplay, new players will be at a GREAT disadvantage unless they invest some 2 month+ in getting new units.

    Oh and about that thing you said that there are a lot of players online? I have spent several hours a day for the past 3-4 days trying to get games going on. In the morning there is virtually nobody except me. And in the evening there are 3-4 players and its so friggin hard to get a game going. I have waited 30+ minutes at times. Oh and all the players I meet are in the 1000+ units category so there is no chance I can win anything. That's boring.

    Anyway, I can't see this game working unless devs will balance somehow this unit thing. Either a limited pool of units and use in game points for commander abilities only, or make all units available for skirmish.

    Edit:

    Case of study. I deployed less, destroyed almost twice as much as my opponent and yet lost the game because I had run out of units. This shouldn't happen in a competitive game.

    b3-report.jpg

    - - - Updated - - -

    After several more fights against veteran players I decided it's useless to play any further. A player that can field all the time all the units he needs will always win vs a player that has a limited stock of units.

    So I am done with the game for now, hopefully until a future patch that will fix this bs.
    Last edited by Wizzmann; 02-10-2017 at 12:24 PM.

 

 

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